CNNFN, November 17, 2004, Wednesday

CNNFN

SHOW: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT 6:00 PM EST

November 17, 2004 Wednesday

TRANSCRIPT: 111701cb.l10

SECTION: BUSINESS

HEADLINE: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT; CNNfn

BYLINE: Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim, David Ensor, Ed Henry, Lou Dobbs, Ed Henry, Lisa Sylvester, Casey Wian, Joe Johns, Lindsey Hilsum

GUESTS: Dan Griswolf, Vernon Briggs, Michael Scheuer

BODY:
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the United States is facing new nuclear threats. Russia says it`s developed advanced nuclear missiles. Iran may have a secret nuclear weapons facility. We`ll have complete coverage.
In Iraq today, U.S. Marines wipe out remaining anti-Iraqi forces in Fallujah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re telling us they`d rather die then come out and surrender. So they`re going to die.
DOBBS: General James Marks says the United States needs more troops in Iraq. General Marks is my guest.
What is going on at the CIA? Tonight I`ll talk with former CIA officer Michael Scheuer, author of "Imperial Hubris." Scheuer says the United States is losing the war on terror.
Also tonight, the invasion of illegal aliens has hidden costs to the economy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don`t pay much in taxes. They tend to use a lot in services, and it tends to drive down wages.
DOBBS: In our face-off tonight, are guest workers good for America? We`ll debate President Bush`s plan to legalize millions of illegal aliens.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, November 17. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, the United States faces an escalating nuclear challenge on at least two fronts.
Russian President Vladimir Putin today said Russia`s armed forces will soon have advanced nuclear missile systems unmatched by any other country. And an Iranian opposition group says Iran is hiding a nuclear weapons facility in Tehran.
Kitty Pilgrim reports on Russia`s nuclear missile systems, and David Ensor reports on the rising nuclear challenge from Iran. We go to Kitty Pilgrim first -- Kitty.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Russian President Putin surprised the world community by talking about a new nuclear missile system that would beat anything that exists today.
Nuclear arms strategists tonight are trying to figure out just who he was trying to impress and why.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (voice-over): Russia`s President Putin is talking big about a new nuclear missile system. He was playing to his audience, high ranking military officials.
VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We are not only conduct research and successfully testing new nuclear missile systems. I`m sure that they will be put into service within the next few years. And what`s more, there will be developments. And there will be systems of the kind that other nuclear powers do not have and will not have in the near future.
PILGRIM: The State Department was quick to point out the United States and Russia discuss nuclear issues regularly.
ADAM ERELI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: Based on those regular consultations, we are -- we are confident that Russia`s plans are not threatening.
PILGRIM: The State Department said only the Russians could explain exactly what kind of systems they`re talking about. U.S. military experts say what Putin is talking about is either a hypersonic cruise missile, or an updated version of the TOPOL-M (ph) ballistic missile.
JACK SPENCER, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Once it gets into space and it releases its warheads, then those warheads will be maneuverable as they descend back to Earth. That would be another characteristic that would make it less vulnerable.
PILGRIM: Russia and the United States have been paring down their nuclear arsenals. The planned reduction through the year 2012 of both countries to between 17,000 and 22,000 strategic nuclear warheads is ongoing.
But some say Russians may try to replace old systems with smaller arsenals of improved missiles.
SARAH MENDELSON, CSIS: I think that Russia and President Putin making a play that Russia is still considered a great power. I think he was playing to an internal audience, and, again, not the public. I think that it`s very much about a certain part of the military that would like to see nuclear forces be modernized.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The Bush administration said Russia`s plans are not threatening. President Bush will meet with President Putin in Chile later this week, and the matter will likely be brought up -- Lou.
DOBBS: We should point out under START II (ph), the reduction in systems, delivery systems and warheads is running just about half what it is supposed to be at this point.
PILGRIM: There are goals set, but they`re not proceeding quite at pace everyone expected.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you. Kitty Pilgrim.
Well, the previously undisclosed Iranian nuclear facility is under the direct control of the Iranian Ministry of Defense, that according to the National Council of Resistance of Iran, the opposition group in Iran.
National security correspondent David Ensor reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Paris an Iranian opposition group known for its sources inside the Iranian military and science elite, said it has new evidence of nuclear weapons related activity at a previously unknown defense department site in Tehran, shown in this satellite photo taken Tuesday.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This intelligence, this information is 100 percent correct.
ENSOR: The group, the People`s Mujahedeen, or National Council of Resistance of Iran, says the site now houses nuclear operations previously carried out at another site that was destroyed earlier this year before inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency could visit it.
ERELI: It is the responsibility of the IAEA to follow up on reports like this, to determine whether Iran is conducting covert nuclear activity.
JOSEPH CIRINCIONE, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT: There`s a lot at stake here for Tehran. These are serious allegations. If they somehow delay or obstruct the inspections, it`s going to cast grave doubt on the declarations they`ve already made and enhance the U.S. case that Iran cannot be trusted.
ENSOR: In Tehran, Iran`s top nuclear negotiator said the charge is flat wrong, that Iran has no undeclared nuclear activities. He said Tehran will honor a suspension of uranium enrichment, promised to three European governments, though it not stop it forever.
HUSSEIN MOUSSAVIAN, IRANIAN NUCLEAR NEGOTIATOR: We hope we would reach the mechanism which Europeans and the IAEA and the world community will be satisfied that enrichment activities forever would remain peaceful.
ENSOR: As part of the proposed deal with Iran, the Europeans agree to continue calling the People`s Mujahedeen a terrorist group as the U.S. does, though the group`s supporters insist the label is unfair.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: The Iranian opposition makes no secret of its wish to hurt the regime in Tehran, and not all of its assertions about Iran and nuclear activity have been corroborated.
But the group was the first to correctly reveal that Iran had for years pursued nuclear activities at secret facilities near Netanz and Iraq -- Lou.
DOBBS: In other words, this opposition group, in point of fact, has a very good record in terms of its accuracy and its veracity?
ENSOR: It has -- it has put out data in the past that is not always correct. But on the big matters, such as the fact that there`s a secret program and where, specifically, the most important parts of it were, they were right.
DOBBS: And this certainly would be described as a big matter. David, what is the reaction within the intelligence community? There is a high level of distrust, to put it mildly, between U.S. -- the U.S. military community and the IAEA.
ENSOR: Well, U.S. officials say they are looking into this report, and the IAEA says the same. Somebody yesterday paid a commercial satellite company to take photographs of the site. I know that, because we found them and we`ve showed them in this report just now. But the way it works in the commercial satellite system, we don`t know who ordered the photos -- Lou.
DOBBS: David Ensor, national security correspondent. Thank you, David.
The United States later this month will hold a military exercise that is likely to upset another member of the so-called axis of evil, North Korea.
North Korea already has nuclear weapons. For the first time B-1 and B-52 bombers will use satellite-guided JDAM bombs to destroy a ship. That exercise will be taking place in the Pacific next Monday and Tuesday.
The U.S. Air Force says the exercise is simply a demonstration of a new military capability and is not intended to send a message to any particular country.
In Iraq, U.S. and Iraqi troops have regained control of most of the northern city of Mosul. Anti-Iraqi forces launched a wave of attacks in Mosul last week in a failed attempt to stop the U.S.-led assault on Fallujah.
Small groups of insurgents continue to fight in Mosul. Today those insurgents set fire to a police station. They destroyed, as well, three police cars.
Meanwhile, in Fallujah, U.S. and Iraqi troops are hunting down remaining anti-Iraqi forces who have refused to surrender. Later here, former military intelligence chief General James Marks will join me. We`ll be talking about this phase of the war and the next.
I`ll also be talking with former CIA officer Michael Scheuer, author of "Imperial Hubris." Scheuer is a fierce critic of President Bush`s strategy in the war on terror. He says the United States must pull back on its relationship with Israel, along with a host of other initiatives.
President Bush, meanwhile, is making a new effort to persuade Congress to implement sweeping intelligence reforms, recommended by the September 11 Commission.
House and Senate negotiators are still trying to reach an agreement before the end of this Congress, but some key lawmakers say it would be a mistake to rush a deal through Congress.
Ed Henry reports from Washington -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.
That`s right. Congress right now is in a lame-duck session, as you know, and there suddenly is momentum on Capitol Hill, in part because of that push from the White House, but also because Democrats realize that in the next session of Congress they`ll have less leverage. They might get the best possible deal they can now.
And Republicans, frankly, want to try to get this off their plate so they can move onto other issues in the next session of Congress.
Speaker Dennis Hastert came out of a White House meeting this morning and told CNN that he hopes to get this 9/11 bill done this week, along with some left-over budget work.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DENNIS HASTERT (R-IL), HOUSE SPEAKER: We need to get a debt ceiling done so we can do the business of a country. We`re going to work on that, I think, within the next couple of days.
We need to do -- finish our corporation process that got cut short because of the elections -- and we`re well on the road to get that done -- and then finally get the 9/11 thing. I think they`re all in those number one priorities, and I think those are the three pieces that we`ll be working on for the rest of this week.
HENRY: But one Republican negotiator in these talks cautioned that progress is being made at a very slow pace since there`s a rush to try to get this lame-duck session done before Thanksgiving. It might -- this 9/11 bill might not get done. It could be pushed back until next year.
There is also some political intrigue developing in the Senate over the fact that on Friday there was a telephone call from White House Senior Adviser Karl Rove, CNN has learned, to Democratic Senator Ben Nelson of Nebraska in which the subject of whether or not Mr. Nelson would like to become the next secretary of agriculture was broached, and that would be a show of bipartisanship in the Cabinet for the president.
But Democrats in the Senate are very concerned about this because they think the motive might be that the president would hope to get a Democratic senator out of the Senate and instead get a Republican in that seat because the Republican governor of Nebraska would appoint Ben Nelson`s successor. That would mean the Republicans would end up having 56 seats in the Senate, that much closer to 60 votes to break filibusters.
Now I spoke to Senator Ben Nelson. He says that he would not confirm nor deny this conversation with Mr. Rove, said he`s happy in his current job. But, when I pressed Senator Nelson, he said that if the president offered it to him, he would have to obviously consider it.
I can tell you Mr. Rove we were not able to reach for comment immediately. White House officials say that his practices do not speak about any private conversations he may have with members of Congress. So that`s where it stands right now -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed, thank you very much for that update.
And we want to point out that Congressman Peter Hoekstra, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, here last night said that in those negotiations to move ahead with the September 11 commission, they were looking to achieve some significant progress, if not outright agreement within the next 36 to 48 hours.
Ed Henry reporting from Capitol Hill.
Thank you.
Still ahead here tonight, a global race to the bottom. How a multibillion- dollar merger could force wages for American workers even lower and possibly send more American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. We`ll have that story.
And the hidden costs of illegal aliens in this country. From health-care expenses to public education, the impact of millions of illegal aliens in this country and our economy. We`ll have that special report and a great deal more.
DOBBS: Three million illegal aliens will invade this country this year. That massive invasion putting a tremendous strain on our hospitals, schools and other public services all across the country, costing taxpayers millions and millions of dollars every year.
Lisa Sylvester has the report from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Gwinnett County, Georgia, they are breaking ground on a new hospital. The county needs the medical facility even as officials try to figure out how to pay for it. The legal immigrant and illegal alien population in this state has more than tripled in the last decade, resulting in an overburdened medical system.
KEVIN BLOYE, GEORGIA HOSPITAL ASSOCIATION: You`ve had cases in the last five years where you`ve had accident victims who are legal immigrants who have run up bills in excess of $1 million in the hospitals, and the question is: Who pays?
SYLVESTER: Across the country, cities are struggling to figure out the math, how to pay for the additional social services, schools, roads and hospitals that illegal aliens require. Immigration reform advocates argue a proposed guest worker program would only make things worse. The Center for Immigration Studies estimates that each illegal alien costs the federal government about $7,000 a year. If they were legalized, the annual cost would increase to $15,000.
STEVE CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: There`s a high cost to cheap labor. Illegals don`t pay much in taxes because they`re unskilled, but they tend to use a fair amount in services.
SYLVESTER: But pro-immigration groups say illegal aliens pay taxes and should receive services.
BENJAMIN JOHNSON, IMMIGRATION POLICY CENTER: They pay into the federal income tax system in huge numbers, and undocumented immigrants specifically don`t draw back out of that -- those pools.
JIMMY HERCHECK, GEORGIANS FOR IMMIGRATION REDUCTION: Americans want to be fair, and they want to do right, but I think people are starting to realize now that our American quality of life is eroding because of the massive numbers of illegal immigrants.
SYLVESTER: Immigration reform groups worry not only about the cost in the short term in social services, but also the long-term cost of permanent lower wages.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: In Georgia, 14 hospitals have closed since 1998. One main reason: uncompensated expenses for medical care -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much.
Lisa Sylvester.
We`ll have much more on this immigration crises and the impact of legalizing millions of illegal aliens, a proposal by the president. We`ll be joined by Dan Griswold of the CATO Institute, Vernon Briggs of Cornell University to face off on that issue coming up here tonight.
And that brings us to the subject of our poll this evening. Do you believe raising the minimum wage would attract more U.S. citizens to industries now dominated by illegal aliens? Yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We`ll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
Sears and Kmart today announced they will merge, create the third largest retailer behind Wal-Mart and Home Depot . The $11 billion deal is also likely to accelerate the loss of American jobs.
Casey Wian has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Attention Kmart suppliers: There may be a blue light special on your companies` jobs.
The $11 billion Sears-Kmart merger is expected to result in about $300 million in annual cost savings. The companies say that will be achieved through an improved purchasing scale, improved supply chain and other operational efficiencies.
What that likely means is more companies that make products that Sears and Kmart sell will be forced to make them overseas to meet price demands.
ALAN TOMELSON, "THE RACE TO THE BOTTOM": The only way that they could do it would be to source even more products from low-wage countries like China or like Mexico. It seems like it will be one more development that`s driving us further down the road of low-wage economic development, low-wage economic growth.
WIAN: If this all sounds familiar, it should. It`s the strategy Wal-Mart has employed to become the world`s largest retailer. Wal-Mart now imports $15 billion a year in merchandise from China, and, if it was a country, Wal-Mart would be China`s eighth largest trading partner, bigger than England and Russian.
Both Sears and Kmart have been crippled by Wal-Mart`s success, and they appear to be trying to follow its lead to stay competitive. Even with the merger, they`ll remain a fraction of Wal-Mart`s size.
HOWARD DAVIDOWITZ, RETAIL ANALYST: No one on this planet has been able to try to out Wal-Mart. They cannot compete with Wal-Mart. They have to differentiate themselves from the $270 billion behemoth. There is no way in the world they can compete with Wal-Mart.
WIAN: One expected strategy: more focus on the brand names being sold in the stores instead of the Sears and Kmart names on the buildings. Sears CEO said there will be head count changes coming out of, another way of saying an unknown number of people will lose their jobs.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Kmart`s CEO says the merger is a win for both customers and investors. He neglected to mention, however, that many American workers and perhaps even the entire U.S. economy could lose in the deal -- Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much.
Casey Wian reporting live from Los Angeles.
Coming up here next, an escalating partisan battle on Capitol Hill. House Republicans protecting Majority Leader Tom DeLay from what they call a political witch-hunt. They`re changing the rules. We`ll tell you why in our special report next.
And then, former CIA official Michael Scheuer will join me. He says the United States needs to rethink its strategy in the Middle East, including its relationship with Israel, if we are to win in the war on terror. He`s my guest coming up next.
Stay with us.
DOBBS: Republicans in the House of Representatives today voted to protect their majority leader, to change a rule that requires a party leader to step down if charged with a felony. Some Republicans say House Majority Leader Tom DeLay is simply the target of what they call a political witch- hunt in Texas.
Joe Johns has the story from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Fearing House Majority Leader Tom DeLay could be indicted in a grand jury investigation in Texas, rank-and-file Republicans in the House moved to protect him from losing power, if it happens. They see the Texas case, led by a prosecutor who is a Democrat, as politically motivated.
REP. HENRY BONILLA (R), TEXAS: We are trying to protect members of our leadership from any crackpot district attorney in any state in the nation from taking on a political agenda and indicting any member for any frivolous cause that they may seem -- that they think is important.
JOHNS: House Republicans voted to change a rule that requires members of the leadership to step down at least temporarily if under indictment. The new rule says they only have to step down if convicted.
In the case of an indictment, a steering committee of Republicans first decides whether the charges are serious enough to require stepping aside. DeLay steadfastly defended the decision.
REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: Democrats have decided that they`re going to use politics of personal destruction to gain power, and what we are doing is protecting ourselves from those assaults. We`re not going to let the Democrats dictate who the chairman or subcommittee chairman or leadership are in the Republican majority.
JOHNS: Three associates of DeLay have been indicted in the Texas case investigating alleged violations in 2002 of estate law against corporate contributions to political campaigns. DeLay denies wrongdoing and says he hasn`t even been questioned in the case.
The investigation is led by Democratic prosecutor Ronnie Earle who indicted Republican Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison in an unrelated matter, but dropped the case before trial. Earle`s defenders point out that in Texas cases, he`s prosecuted more Democrats than Republicans.
Some in the GOP, like Chris Shays of Connecticut, oppose changing the rule because it rolls back a reform they put in place 10 years ago to distinguish themselves from ethical lapses by some top Democrats.
REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), CONNECTICUT: I just think it`s a slippery slope we are building momentum in, and we`re losing our uniqueness and our difference.
JOHNS: Democrats went on the attack.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: ... that the first order of business following the election on the part of the Republican majority is to lower their ethical standards for their leaders in the Congress by saying that if indicted, you can serve.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS: Now, for the record, the rule for House Democrats on this is that committee chairs have to step down if they`re indicted. There`s no such rule for the elected party leaders. Nancy Pelosi said she found out about that today and wants to change the rule.
Lou, back to you.
DOBBS: Joe, thank you very much.
Joe Johns reporting from Capitol Hill.
Still ahead here, the formerly anonymous CIA insider Michael Scheuer says the West is losing the war on terror. He`s written the book "Imperial Hubris" and now says the United States must rethink its relationship with Israel, its entire strategy in the Middle East if we`re to win that war. Michael Scheuer, author of "Imperial Hubris," my guest next.
And rewriting history. A truly astonishing discovery could change everything we believed to be true about when we first inhabited this continent. That remarkable story coming up as well.
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: In just a moment, we`ll have a special report for you from the front lines with the U.S. Marines in Falluja, and I`ll be talking with Major General James Marks who says we absolutely need more troops on the ground in Iraq.
But, first, these top stories tonight.
The Food and Drug Administration is being blamed for this year`s flu shot shortage. Congressman Henry Waxman of California has blasted the FDA. He says, "It ignored glaring problems" at a British factory where that vaccine is produced. The United States lost half its flu shot supply when that plant was shut down in October because of contamination.
The Federal Communications Commission tonight is deciding whether it will punish ABC for a risqu' promo shown just before "Monday Night Football." FCC head Michael Powell said he was disappointed by the ad for ABC`s "Desperate Housewives" show. The network apologized for the promo, admitting only that its placement was "inappropriate."
And TiVo , the company made famous for allowing viewers to skip through commercials and record television is now trying to make certain advertisers aren`t ignored. In a new deal with those advertisers, Tivo users will soon see billboards or small logos pop up when they try to fast-forward through those commercials.
In Iraq, U.S. and Iraqi troops have achieved a remarkable victory against anti-Iraqi forces in Falluja, but some insurgents and terrorists are refusing to surrender.
Lindsey Hilsum of ITN reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LINDSEY HILSUM, ITN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Marines are being told to comb the mosque for weapons, and, as they do, the firing starts. It turns into a firefight. The armored vehicle arrives with more ammunition because the houses around the mosque are full of fighters.
A group of Marines is pinned down on a flat rooftop. A Marine has been injured, and his colleagues need to administer first aid and get him out.
But the rest of the group now needs to get out too under intense fire. The fire team crosses the road.
They`re going to hit the insurgents with an anti-tank missile.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re aiming in that window.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bare window right there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE; It looks like a door way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go!
HILSUM: The back blast of the missile engulfs everyone in dust.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!
HILSUM: They call in an air strike. And other troops must quickly leave the danger area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s probably a good 20 or 30 down in the last corner. And they`re pinched right now. I tried talking to them with an interpreter, get them to surrender, walk out onto the street. They tell us they`d rather die than come out and surrender. So they`re going to die.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five seconds!
HILSUM: Night is falling, as the marines go on foot to see whether the combined power of all their weaponry has destroyed their enemy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joining me now from Washington is retired major general James Marx, who served as senior intelligence officer for coalition land forces during the Iraqi invasion. Good to have you with us, general.
GEN. JAMES MARKS, (RET.) U.S. ARMY: Thank you, Lou, very much.
DOBBS: This operation, our troops in Falluja have done a remarkable job under the toughest fighting conditions. Now the issue is what strategy will be involved? Will they in fact hold Falluja, or is the idea to, again, to extend to clean out the city and then withdraw?
MARKS: Lou, the clear intent is to take what was held or what was just taken in Falluja, they`re going to hold onto. Now whether it has a coalition face, or an increasing Iraqi face that truly is a question to be answered.
But I would tell you over the course of time as the coalition moves closer toward elections in Iraq in January, you`ll see an increasing Iraqi face on that security, which is the way it should be.
DOBBS: It would be the ideal, of course, but the fact is those are American faces for the most part there now. And their security and well- being is paramount for the people watching and listening to you tonight. Is the strategy being followed in Falluja -- is it the best strategy to try to protect the lives of our many men and women there?
MARKS: Lou, it is. Urban combat is absolutely the most difficult type of combat that you`re going to have. And the marines and soldiers on the ground clearly are doing a magnificent job and have done a magnificent job. General Casey on the ground today has just declared secured that Falluja is secure.
Now using the term secure is difficult. It`s all encompassing in terms of what it means, but stability is probably more an accurate term, and it allows to you move and meter force around the city as threats present themselves. Because in an insurgency, you will never fully clear out all the insurgents that exists. But the preponderances have been gone or are killed.
DOBBS: And Mosul for the most part, under the control of U.S. and Iraqi forces now. Is this an assault, an initiative that is going to sweep throughout Sunni Triangle?
MARKS: Lou, you have to anticipate that it is. And it should come as no surprise that it is. The Sunni Triangle clearly is a hotbed. And when you move insurgents out of Falluja, clearly they`ve got to go somewhere. And the advantage that the coalition forces have now is that the insurgents, specifically, the insurgent leadership, is on the run. They have no place they can plant a flag and try to declare they now own that specific location. But there`s a lot of work to do in the entire strategy of this counterinsurgency against these insurgents.
DOBBS: Of course, the very thing that makes insurgency so difficult is that they sometimes in this case, do not have a flag, and secondly, are not interested in planning it, but rather than tearing one down. You`re confident we are in good shape here?
MARKS: Well, we are in good shape. But it is a long. And it`s a tough endeavor that the coalition forces are about. Counterinsurgency is defined by its lack of uncertainty, lack of clarity, all combat is. But a counterinsurgency is going to take efforts on parallel tracks. You`ve got major combat operations that have to take place. And then simultaneously you`ve got to put in place reconstruction forces and the ability to build that which needs to be built within Iraq.
DOBBS: General Marks, good to have you with us, thank you.
MARKS: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Still ahead here tonight, the White House promises to give millions of illegal aliens in this country, legal status. Critics say it will only hurt American workers. Two experts will debate this issue in our face-off tonight.
And then, imperial hubris, the once anonymous CIA official who wrote a book criticizing the war on terror resigns and reveals his identity. It will be fully revealed here tonight. Michael Sheuer is my guest. Still ahead. Please stay with us.
DOBBS: As many as 15 million illegal aliens live in this country. The Bush administration has said that legalizing millions of illegal aliens is a high priority for his second term. Two experts face off tonight on the impact that policy would have on American workers and our economy.
Vernon Briggs is professor at Cornell University school of industrial and labor relations who says the president`s plan for guest workers would only drive down wages for American workers. Dan Griswold is the director of trade policy studies at the Cato Institute. He says legalizing illegal workers will actually raise wages.
Gentlemen, good to have you with us. Dan Griswold, how in the world would a guest worker program raise wages for everyone else?
DAN GRISWOLD, CATO INSTITUTE: First, Lou, we`re not talking about letting more people in, we`re talking about legalizing those who are already here. And estimates are about 9 million. If they`re legal, they have more bargaining power in the marketplace. They can accept better jobs, they invest more in their skills and their language skills, their job skill, and this raises their wages. That was the experience in the 1980s.
And U.S. workers won`t have to compete against a large underground illegal pool of labor. We can have people working legally. They can enjoy the full protections of U.S. labor laws. And they can enable large important U.S. industries like the motel, hotel, hospitality industry to hire middle class workers and expand.
DOBBS: Professor Briggs, that sounds rational?
VERNON BRIGGS, LABOR ECONOMICS PROFESSOR: Well, a guest worker program does nothing from stopping illegal immigrants from coming in, in fact all it does is encourage more to come. And then reward those who have broken our laws.
All the studies have shown the effect of our immigration policy because so many of the illegal immigrants are concentrated in the low skilled occupations of the nation`s economy that they depress wages in those sectors. There`s no reason to expect that -- most of them are already here. They`re already depressing wages. The need is to get them out of labor market and that should come by enforcing employer sanctions which ought to be our first policy to try to deal with illegal immigration. Once we prove we can actually enforce our laws, then we might be able to talk about some sort of guest worker program later on, if it turns out there really are shortages. But there is no demonstrable shortage of low skilled workers in the United States today.
DAN GRISWOLD, CATO INSTITUTE: Lou, we have tried enforcement. We have quintupled spending, we have tripled the personnel at the border and we not dealing with the fundamentals we are creating millions of low skilled jobs in this country while Americans are getting older and better educated. We are not interested in filling those jobs generally. Yet we have no legal channel for peaceful hard-working people to come into the United States and fill these jobs that most Americans don`t want. And the result is you have illegal immigration.
We need to recognize reality, create a legal channel, legalize people already here, and that will benefit our economy. If we were to round up millions of people, pull them out of their workplace, their communities, it would be an economic and humanitarian disaster for the United States. We need to recognize reality and fix our broken immigration system.
BRIGGS: At some point you have to recognize what the law is. It is illegal for illegal immigrants to be employed in the United States. We have simply not enforced the laws. Yes, we`ve increased our resources on the border but we have not increased the resources on internal enforcement beyond the border that much. We`ve increased the number of border patrol to about 10,000 but we generally run about a 20 percent vacancy, turnover rate in the border patrols, so we usually don`t have -- even the border patrols are grossly inadequate to the assignments that they have. We have very few people actually doing internal enforcement within the country and to actually enforce the immigration laws, so they really haven`t put us anywhere near the amount of resources that are needed relative to the problem. And that`s what really should be important.
DOBBS: Let me ask you both a question because, one, it seems to me is a condition absolutely preceding without negotiation has to be border security. "TIME" magazine reports that three million aliens will cross our borders this year. That makes a joke of homeland security and preposterous claims that we have border security. Can we agree on that?
BRIGGS: Absolutely.
GRISWOLD: Border security is fundamental.
DOBBS: And number two, I have not heard anyone say how many people we need this in this country and how we are going to control those who come in. This country has a responsibility, our national policy must be, it seems to me, gentlemen, to say straightforwardly, we need X number of -- imagine this, lawyers or accountants or bricklayers or carpenters, or skilled labor in whatever form. We`re not doing that.
BRIGGS: Absolutely. The Jordan Commission, the Commission of Immigration Reform after seven years of study said our immigration levels are too high. They recommended in 1997 unemployment rates were lower that we actually reduced legal immigration by 35 percent. They stated unequivocally we do not need unskilled workers in this country...
DOBBS: I`d be delighted to raise legal migration into this country, if we had a rational basis for it. Dan, you get the last word.
GRISWOLD: There is a national security question here. Homeland Security Secretary Ridge was in Mexico last week saying his job would be easier if we legalize immigration. He could concentrate his resources on those few people coming into the country intending us to do harm
DOBBS: Wait a minute, Dan. Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld is in Ecuador concerned about exactly the opposite. That is terrorists following the smuggling trails of human smugglers.
GRISWOLD: Lou, we`re all concerned about terrorists.
DOBBS: OK, please respond to what I asked. Please respond to what I asked.
GRISWOLD: I did. A legalization program would make us more secure by draining this swamp of smuggling and document fraud. Those millions of people illegally, they know who they`re, they would be more cooperative with law enforcement people and we could concentrate our resources on the terrorists, not taking a division of troops away from the war on terrorism and stationing them on the Mexican border.
BRIGGS: That`s why you need to enforce employer sanctions to make it clear that the job magnet is not going to be working anymore to bring illegal immigrants in this country. Then we can focus on the...
GRISWOLD: We tried that before.
BRIGGS: Well, we haven`t tried very much.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Gentlemen, we have to break it here. I`m sorry. We`re out of time. Please -- I ask that both of you come back, and we`ll continue this discussion.
Or debate if you will. Vernon Briggs, Dan Griswold, thank you both for being here.
DOBBS: We want to hear from you on this very same subject. And an element of it. Do you believe that raising the minimum wage would attract more U.S. citizens to industries now dominated by illegal aliens? Yes or no. Cast your vote at CNN.com/lou. We`ll have the results later in the broadcast.
Coming up the former head of the CIA unit that was assigned to find and kill Osama bin Laden says the west is losing the war on terror. Michael Scheuer, the author of "Imperial Hubris" will join me.
And a shocking discovery in South Carolina. A discovery that suggests the history of human beings may be rewritten. We`ll have that remarkable story as well, all of that and more still ahead here. Please stay with us.
DOBBS: My next guest is the once anonymous author of a highly critical book on how this country is fighting the war on terror. In fact, saying it`s losing the fight. Michael Scheuer wrote "Imperial Hubris." He`s a 22-year veteran of the CIA who created and led the CIA`s unit to track down Osama bin Laden. He resigned from the CIA last week and joins us tonight from Washington, D.C. Good to have you with us.
MICHAEL SCHEUER, AUTHOR, "IMPERIAL HUBRIS": Thank you, sir.
DOBBS: Let`s -- let`s start first with your reason for your resignation at this point. What was it?
SCHEUER: I simply decided, sir, that there was some things I wanted to say about Osama bin Laden, the threat he posed, that were not compatible with my remaining a serving CIA officer, and so I resigned on very cordial terms. I wasn`t forced out. And that`s really the story.
DOBBS: You also, among the things that you say is that Osama bin Laden is quote, unquote a great man, a charismatic figure for the entire Muslim world, not simply radical fringe elements or radical Islamists. How powerful do you think that figure is and his ability to bring people to a philosophy of terrorism, and rabid fundamentalism?
SCHEUER: It`s not really bringing them to a philosophy of terrorism, Mr. Dobbs, so much as he`s bringing them to recognize or perceive the United States policies in the Middle East to be anti-Islamic. You know, it`s -- he`s really working with an audience that is prone to believe that anyway. We have in the past five years, some very strong polling evidence that shows 80, 90 percent of the population in some Islamic countries oppose U.S. policies.
DOBBS: But Michael, on that point...
SCHEUER: Yes.
DOBBS: The idea, I`m sitting here talking with the man who led the unit to find and kill or capture Osama bin Laden, talking about polling. Why should this country, so long as it is focused on its own values and traditions in the certainty of its pursuing its own interests, why should we care about a poll of the quote, unquote "Arab street"?
SCHEUER: Well, the reason we should care is we have a choice between a war and endless war, sir. Our leaders continue to say that bin Laden and his like and those who follow him want to destroy our freedoms and liberties and electoral system and that kind of idea.
It has nothing to do with that. If that was what bin Laden was arguing against, he would have no support, no appreciable support in the Muslim world. It`s not a matter of sympathizing with what they think. I really don`t care what they think. But the thing we want to do is to make sure we take the measure of our enemy, and as long as we`re fighting him because we think he hates our freedom, we`re going to underestimate the power he is developing across the Islamic world.
DOBBS: Michael, you suggest a number of steps that some suggest were conciliation even appeasement. For example, withdrawing from the longstanding intense relationship with Israel. Do you really think that is absolutely necessary, in your view?
SCHEUER: No, sir. Mr. Dobbs, my suggestion is simply we need a more aggressive military policy against our enemies. The intelligence services must also work steadily, but Americans have to decide on whether or not those policies, which have been in place for 30 years continue to serve American interest. No one is suggesting, certainly not me, that we abandon the Israelis. I think a situation where the dog led the tail for a while, might well have an impact in the Muslim world.
What we have to do overtime is not only kill our enemies, but to slow the potential bin Ladenism, if you will, has for growth in the Muslim world.
DOBBS: As I listen to you, I think with George Tenet saying, Michael, it`s going to take five years to create an effective covert force, Porter Goss saying even longer. The upheaval that is going on now, whether it`s necessary upheaval or not, however you construe it. The fact is the CIA doesn`t seem to be focused, in your assessment, at least, on doing those things that most of us expect from the CIA, that is to have had the best analysis, the best and most efficient organization. You raising alarm bells throughout, pushed aside.
Is it your sense that the CIA is going to be far better focus now?
SCHEUER: It`s my sense, sir, that really the CIA delivered the goods regarding Osama bin Laden, and it was simply not acted upon by the United States government. The clandestine service delivered repeated opportunities where bin Laden could have been kill before 1999 by the U.S. Military or captured. I think it`s a mistake to denigrate any institution of the American government, but especially the CIA. For example, I think...
DOBBS: Oh, I wasn`t -- by the way, I`m not denigrating in anyway, but I also think it`s a mistake not being able to criticize quite openly and publicly, as you have done, Michael, any institutions, this is one the greatest thing is this is a free democracy.
SCHEUER: I thoroughly agree with that, sir. And the CIA has been cursed, I think, over the last decade with quite mediocre leadership in terms of directors and deputy directors for operations. And I hope Mr. Goss does well. We certainly need a certain amount of leadership. What I object to is the denigration of the work that`s being done by the men and women of the clandestine service.
DOBBS: And, just for the record, we should point out, just to be fair here, Porter Goss has taken great lengths, even his dealing with the upheaval as we described it here tonight, to point out he has great respect of the work product of the men and women of the CIA. And we have great respect for you, bringing your views to the public and to the fore. And we know the debate, the discussion will continue.
Michael Scheuer, I hope we`ll continue part of that discussion on this broadcast. Come back soon.
SCHEUER: It would be my pleasure, sir. Thank you kindly.
DOBBS: Thank you.
An extraordinary claim tonight from scientist at the University of South Carolina. They say they have found proof that human beings were on this continent 50,000 years ago. That`s tens of thousands of years earlier than first thought. Scientists have been studying an area along the Savannah river where they discovered tools and burned plants that carbon date back to 50,000 years ago.
SCHEUER: More bad news for consumers. Last month the government reported higher prices for everything, from gasoline to prescription drug to clothing, the middle class still feeling the squeeze.
Christine Romans is here -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, American consumers got hammered last month at the pharmacy, the grocery store, the gas station, in October consumer prices had their biggest jump in five months. Gasoline and fuel prices rose about 9 percent. Fruit prices rose more than 6 percent. That was the biggest jump there in more than 20 years. And vegetable costs soared almost 9 percent.
Now last year inflation was at a 40 year low. This year it`s running almost twice as fast, now up 3.9 percent of the annual rate. And that hurts American workers. Lou, after adjusting for inflation, weekly earnings for workers actually fell in October, down 0.4 percent.
DOBBS: And everyone should know those prices are not going to coming down, get cheaper any time soon.
ROMANS: No, with the dollar at all-time low against the Euro, imports of those goods is all that much more expensive.
DOBBS: Christine Romans, thank you.
Still ahead here, the results our poll and a preview of what`s ahead tomorrow. Please, stay with us.
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight, 82 percent of you say raising the minimum wage would attract more U.S. citizens to industries now dominated by illegal aliens, 18 percent disagree.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. My guests will include Senator Dianne Feinstein of California, and conservative Reverend Jerry Falwell will join me to talk about values, politics, and his mass recruitment effort aimed at keeping conservative Republicans in the White House.
Please be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" coming up next.
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